# Night and Day Should Flip Every Six Months if We Were Orbiting Around the Sun

## 131 thoughts on “Night and Day Should Flip Every Six Months if We Were Orbiting Around the Sun”

1. Joseph August 11, 2016 at 2:16 pm Reply

What do these guys smoke?

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• Manny Clay August 12, 2016 at 3:39 pm Reply

If you can refute this, please do so.

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• Joseph August 12, 2016 at 3:43 pm

Are you humoring me for comic effect, or you you really believe this?

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• Neil puffGrasse Tyson February 22, 2019 at 12:19 pm

There is actually not 24 hours in a day. Each day is 4 minutes short of a complete 24 hours. Do the math…that said, I guess it’s up to you if you believe that’s really the case, or another lie taught in school. I mean, four minutes, really?! It seems like a creator, God for example, would keep numbers nice and even in the setup… But, 3.14 isn’t exactly a round, nice number to be everywhere, and it is.. I’m confident that The Lord is a practical joker, rarely does anyone give credit for that..

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• Keith C. March 5, 2019 at 2:02 am

Actually, Neil puffGrasse Tyson, you are kind of correct. Our days that are 24 hours are solar days, and that is the length of time from YOUR part of the earth pointing at the sun, until the next day when you are pointing at the sun again. It is EXACTLY 24 hours. Now, from the casual observer, the time it takes the earth to spin exactly 360 degrees is 23 hours and 56 minutes. This is called a sidreal day. The reason these two days aren’t exactly the same is because we are orbiting around the sun. By definition these two things are different. It really has nothing to do with any creator. Man defined a solar day to be EXACTLY 24 hours.

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• Manny Clay August 12, 2016 at 8:47 pm Reply

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• Joseph August 13, 2016 at 7:05 am

You speak of phenomena that do exist. If you live in Svalbard then you have around 6 months of day then around 6 months of night; it switches. If you live in a less extreme corner of the globe you would expect to see a gradual lengthening and shortening of the days; hello winter and summer. The fact that you cannot understand or visualise the rotation of the Earth is disappointing; but also discredits your entire site. I find it baffling how people can be so against things they can literally see with their own eyes. I think there is always going to be a small section of the human race that wants to label everything a conspiracy because they don’t have the intelligence to do anything more; sad but you cannot stop people wasting their life away

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• Demitra M. N. August 13, 2016 at 11:29 am Reply

Joseph, first you mock then you offer up nothing more edifying than your personal disappointment that others don’t live up to your expectations. You have obviously not taken even 5 minutes to see what everyone else here is seeing.Perhaps if you did you wouldn’t have to live life “baffled” when you come across those who are seeing past the deceptive hokum of mainstream science and it’s elitist jargon, which clearly only the truly indoctrinated can rationalize and call reality.

The truth is, life is not confusing or convoluted despite the deep mind programming we have all been subjected to by the system. It is only made so by those at the top who’ve wished to control and direct the thinking minds of others. Elaborate and convoluted explanations for what is simple everyday stuff (and it’s all everyday stuff) is essentially ‘the emperor has no clothes’ being played out to great effect. The FEers are those who are seeing the evidence staring them in the face, and daring to point out the nonsensical lies, and the ostentatious fakery of those who are passing themselves off as the pinnacle of authority and knowledge.

If you don’t wish to analyze and mull on the evidence as put forth by the FEers and communicate by asking questions when you don’t understand, then why are you even here? There are many groups out there who will gladly accommodate you by describing your present worldview in familiar and comforting ways, why not ‘play’ with them?

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• Joseph August 15, 2016 at 9:11 am

“despite the deep mind programming we have all been subjected to by the system” – Do you have any idea how loose your grip on reality is? I comment on posts like this so that ordinary innocent people are not brainwashed by a small cult of people who abuse the hard work of centuries of human effort. You present a post that is flawed in its logic; at around the level of science taught to children when they are 14, it is easily discredited by making observations with actually relatively inexpensive home equipment you can buy on Amazon and then get upset that people don’t believe you. You know you accuse others of brainwashing – and yet you get highly defensive and go back into your bunker of insanity when faced with logic. Think I know where the open minds lie; not with the people sitting in tin foil hats claiming the world is flat and the system is keeping them down

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• Demitra M. N. August 15, 2016 at 1:06 pm

Dear Joseph, you suddenly do a lot of backpedaling for someone who is so concerned about the mental welfare of his fellowman. Might I remind you that you came in here asking what was being smoked? You did not caringly and benevolently offer any clear and concise knowledge in your concern for our mental welfare. No, you simply ridiculed. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, there is nothing loving or helpful about ridicule. It’s nothing more than the intent to belittle another so you can feel superior within yourself.

The fact is, your fellowmen here are attempting to exercise their minds by keeping them open. This is necessary in order to entertain possibilities, however far-fetched those possibilities may be to you and to others who think as you do. If such activities are too frightening to you because they leave you feeling ungrounded and unstable, then by all means don’t do it! But more importantly, you need to become aware of the fact that no one likes to be condescended to — its a form of verbal abusive and it is not helpful to anyone, not even you. If you really care about others as you say, then let them mull about life matters in the way that helps them make sense of it even, and especially, if their thought process doesn’t find your approval.

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• Rodney Baker February 20, 2018 at 5:14 pm Reply

Dear Joseph, Every picture on the internet showing the seasons in a heliocentric model shows exactly the way you say it does. Everyday the earth rotates 360 degrees and by the time it gets to the other side of the sun it has no choice but be 180 degrees from where it started. Because of this, I believe each new day would cause the sun to arrive one hour earlier then it did the previous day. I’ve been searching for other information about this and I can’t really find much. If you have any information on this matter and would be willing to share it, I’d appreciate receiving it. Thanks

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• colmford February 26, 2018 at 11:39 pm

Accuse me of being a simpleton if you will. But if you assert (as indeed you do) that “Everyday the earth rotates 360 degrees…” then how can the heliocentric theory (as we understand it to be) be correct? For isn’t the Earth supposed to be spinning on its ‘axis’ at a 1000mph? If this be the case then you should be saying not that the Earth rotates everyday, but that it rotates very nearly every minute!

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• EvidencePlease February 27, 2018 at 12:08 am

Colmford,

Your assertion on earth rotation needs actual math, with clear details in order to attempt to understand the (rather arbitrary) conclusion of “it rotates very nearly every minute”.

Or perhaps you would prefer to provide evidence of what happens under a non-rotation perspective, as far as night, day, seasons, and other related topics. Either way, empty, evidence is required.

Thx.

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2. Demitra M. N. August 11, 2016 at 5:06 pm Reply

You don’t have to be a genius or even a physicist to grasp this one. You may still not be convinced of a FE but I promise you once you take the 5 minutes necessary to wrap your head around this simple, logical concept, your bubble of belief in the heliocentric model will get some serious deflating, if not outright bursting.

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• bmwmechanic August 11, 2016 at 5:58 pm Reply

Sorry, but in this case it’s your bubble that is going to burst.

“Noon” is based on the position of the Sun in sky, the time when the Sun is highest overhead. There might be slight differences based on daylight savings, or where you are in a time zone, but it’s mostly about the Sun being overhead.

So the statement “it will face the same direction at 12:00pm no matter where it is” is just plain wrong.

Lots of interesting and thought provoking stuff here, but this isn’t one of them.

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• Manny Clay August 12, 2016 at 12:13 am

Bmw mechanic. You sir are flat out wrong. Wrong. Wrong. You have no place to hide…. This globe lie gig is up!

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• bmwmechanic August 12, 2016 at 11:40 pm
• Nick August 13, 2016 at 9:13 am

Manny, the fault is in the premise at the top of the diagram. The Earth does NOT make a full rotation every 24 hours (it takes about 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds). The false premise gives a false conclusion! Each 24 hours (on average) the Earth makes a complete rotation WITH RESPECT TO THE SUN! I’m afraid this really is the weakest of all so called FE proofs.

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• Demitra M. N. August 13, 2016 at 11:58 am

bmwmechanic, just like Joseph above, with a few select words you’ve signified nothing. You say that the assertion made is wrong but you don’t explain why. We just have to take you at your word. Well, okay then.
Perhaps you should comment when you have something enlightening to share rather than criticizing but offering no adequate correction. I mean, what is the point? You’re attitude belies an underlying feeling that ‘there’s nothing new under the sun’ and yet, it is you that would be wrong because there is a whole lot that, while not new in itself, would be new to our collective understanding.
As for the wiki ‘science’ page link you provided, read my comment to Joseph and what i think about elaborate and convoluted explanations when simple and everyday wording is more practical to the interested layman.

…..

And Nick, you too, have made no sense here. You put the words “WITH RESPECT TO THE SUN!” in bold lettering and yet… aside from the fact that you are yelling, what exactly do you intend on impressing upon us? Why nay-say if you aren’t going to back it up with a clear rational thought process so that we can all follow where you’re coming from? I would be interested in why you think as you do if you weren’t so assertively vague.

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• bmwmechanic August 13, 2016 at 5:13 pm

“You say that the assertion made is wrong but you don’t explain why.”

I’m sorry, but I did explain why. This is just about the definition of the word “noon.”

Noon can be used interchangeably with “midday.” Noon means the middle of the day, when the Sun is at the highest point in the sky.

So the statement “it will face the same direction at 12:00pm no matter where it is” is wrong, unless you mean that it always faces the sun at noon, which is true.

Science is about observations, experiments, etc. But this is just a very simple case of a misuse of a word. You are free to change the definition of a word, but unless everyone agrees what “noon” is, you can’t really discuss it.

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• Demitra M. N. August 13, 2016 at 8:53 pm

bmwmechanic, I only said that if anyone bothered to take a few minutes to mentally envision the earth going around the sun day by day and season by season with the earth always facing the sun at the same time of day, that they would quickly notice that the helio-centric model just doesn’t work as we’ve been told it should (i explain more clearly below).
While I don’t have a problem discussing anything like an adult, I do take issue with being impertinently told that it was my personal bubble that was going to get burst. Why say this? did my comment offend you?? For some reason you thought it made sense to make your comment to me a personal one even though you didn’t actually have any facts to base on your “threat”. Why not just ask for help in understanding this whole thing better? You’d have gotten a better response from me initially.

According to the heliocentric model, it is the earth in it’s yearly spin around the sun that gives us our seasons, and (according to the heliocentric model) we get our 24 hr clock of day/night as a result of the earth spinning on it’s axis. That’s all fine and good and even believable until we imagine the TWO rotations working in unison. That’s when the heliocentric model fails because the two rotations together produce very different conditions than what we here on the planet actually experience in our reality.

If the heliocentric model were true and correct, then we would experience the sun at 12pm differently, at different times of the year, depending on which season we happened to be in. For example: if the sun were high in the sky in the Springtime for me where I live, then come the Autumn, 12pm would now be dark outside (midnight) for me because the sun would be shining on the opposite side of the planet in order to “accommodate” the heliocentric model. Likewise, during the Summer and Winter I’d be seeing a sunrise or a sunset at 12pm. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never lived in a world where that happens. But according to the heliocentric model, that’s exactly what “should” happen.

At 12pm, assuming there are no clouds, the sun can always be counted on to be shining overhead. That’s the reality of our DIRECT experience every single day, no matter what time of the year it is, for every one of us. Again, no matter where we live on the planet 12pm is High Noon, every time, all the time.

Bottom line, the heliocentric model of earth orbiting sun, while earth spins on it’s axis at the same time, ultimately ends up painting a very different picture than the one we are accustomed to seeing. That’s what’s important about this blog post.

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• Nick August 15, 2016 at 7:36 am

Demitra, I am sorry that you are finding it difficult to follow my argument, I will spell things out more clearly. Please also note, I was using capitals FOR EMPHASIS, not shouting.

The diagram starts, “The earth makes a full rotation every 24 hours, therefore it will face the same direction at 12:00pm [sic] no matter where it is in it’s revolution round the sun.” This is simply NOT (emphasis) what the heliocentric model says! On average the Earth takes about 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds to make a full rotation with respect to the stars, but takes a further 3 minutes and 56 seconds to return to the same position with respect to the Sun. The extra time is needed BECAUSE OF the orbit around the Sun. So, if the Sun is directly overhead at noon, it continues to be.

The diagram either shows a complete misunderstanding of the timings involved or is a deliberate attempt to mislead.

As a further question, how does the FE theory explain the variation in length of the Solar day caused by the slightly elliptical orbit of the Earth?

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• Demitra M. N. August 15, 2016 at 1:09 pm

Very good, Nick, I appreciate your further clarification regarding your understanding of the heliocentric model of science. Sometimes strongly emphasized words alone don’t get a point across.

I certainly can and do accept this minor variation of the Sun’s orbital path even and especially in terms of the FE model. What you have described does not only work in the heliocentric model, but it fits very nicely into the FE model as well!

Remember, while the FE model does not adhere to the idea that the Earth itself is in motion, it does fully embrace the notion that the Sun is continuously circling above the plane. And so what you deem a definitive proof that the Earth itself must be in motion for this phenomenon to occur, is not. The Sun, as you have described it’s motion, rotates for some hours, minutes and seconds, and then corrects it’s orbital path. Yes, indeed! from a FEers point of view this correction is absolutely necessary as it sees to it that the sun does not continue off into the distance in a straight line AWAY from the plane, but continues to arc in a circle ABOUT the plane.

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• Nick August 15, 2016 at 11:45 pm

Demitra, so do you accept that the diagram is, at best, misleading?

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• Demitra M. N. August 16, 2016 at 9:57 am

I have to admit this diagram misrepresents the relevancy of what the heliocentric model actually says occurs, and as a result, muddies the waters for those who are trying to understand the basic workings of the FE model.

Nick, I thank you for applying yourself to this — very much appreciated!

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• Nick August 16, 2016 at 10:16 am

Demitra, I appreciate your appreciation! 🙂

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• Demitra M. N. August 16, 2016 at 10:31 am

Well, for sure…thanks, where thanks is due! 🙂

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• Manny Clay August 18, 2016 at 9:17 am

Bmwmechanic, I do see the math. Thank you for showing me. While its not a proof for heliocentricity as opposed to flat earth I will no longer point to it as a reason the globe earth model is impossible. I appreciate it very much. Manny

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• bmwmechanic August 19, 2016 at 12:38 am

Thanks for being a man(ny) and admitting it. You’re correct, this does not prove the shape of the Earth. It simply debunks this blog entry, which is based on untruths.

Let’s see who among your comrades will also be big enough to admit that this particular bit of FE ‘evidence’ has been debunked.

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• Jeffrey Mason September 13, 2018 at 7:08 am

Look, even giving you the benefit that the Sun’s position in the sky will be different and therefore it invalidates the claims here made, by FEers…the fact remains that the differences in position do not amount to a significant enough shift in day and night to undermine the claims made in this presentation. The fact of the matter is, the basic claim made here is a valid one and even if high noon six months later wouldn’t be exactly where the sun is now , does not change the fact that we never witness enough of a shift in our experience to make day and night flip positions, and in the Heliocentric model, they absolutely would without question flip every six months. The mere fact we never witness this proves the heliocentric model is a lie.

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• Keith C. October 16, 2018 at 6:49 pm

No, we don’t and won’t see a ‘flip’ every six months. In a way we see a gradual ‘flip’ as each day is actually 23 hours 56 minutes, which accounts for the earth’s rotation as it orbits the sun. It could have been set up such that the sun is at its highest point happens exactly 24 hours (using the current second/minute/hour definition/duration). But it would get weird trying to add in the extra time for a year, that extra 0.25/year or 1 day per 4 years/leap day. It’s just defined that way, no magic flip or anything. Basically at noon, you are always looking at the sun.

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• Rodney Baker October 16, 2018 at 8:32 pm

Hello,

Iâm not sure why, but I received this in my email. I do have thoughts on this subject Iâd like to share with you. Iâve attached a MS Word file to this email. It is something I wrote a while back. Please open it and let me know if this is what you are talking about.

Rodney Baker

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• Rodney Baker October 23, 2018 at 9:42 pm

It really has nothing to do with the sun at all. It just so happen the sun is an example of how the mechanics works. Yes, that’s right, it is a mechanical situation. Let’s take two people looking straight on eye to eye with each other, Without turning one way or the other, one person moves to the back of the second person, That person is now looking away from the other person or directly opposite from him. Any time two objects face each other, when one object move half way around the second object it will always end up facing the opposite direction. The same is true for the earth and the sun. When the earth faces the sun, when it gets half way around the sun, it will no longer face the sun but face directly opposite the sun. It is mechanically impossible for it to do anything different. So, if a spot on earth at 6:00 AM faces the sun, when the earth gets half way around the sun and it becomes 6:00 AM again, the spot on earth will no longer face the sun. That spot will be facing completely opposite the sun. That means it is not possible for the earth to see sunrise at 6:00 AM throughout its entire track around the sun from one season to the next as we all know it does. By the time the earth gets half way around the sun, sunrise will have shifted 12 hours or 1/2 a complete day. Then as earth continues on, the time will begin to shift opposite until it gets back where it started and sunrise will be at 6:00 AM again. If you don’t believe me, get two objects and try it yourself. This is why a heliocentric universe may work for seasons, but days and nights will shift throughout the year.

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• Keith C. October 24, 2018 at 3:19 am

You obviously haven’t read this thread. In short,sidereal days are actually 23 hours 56 minutes and solar days are 24 hours. The solar day is the length of time it takes the earth to rotate from noon to noon of the next day, which is about a 361 degree rotation of the earth. So over the course of 180 days, or 1/2 a year, the earth rotates 180 extra degrees, which keeps you pointing at the sun at noon time all the time. And before you say, well that’s just too coincidental, I don’t believe you. Well, it is no coincidence. Time was set up specifically to make this happen when they defined the second, minute, hour and day. You can watch this video for a visual. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmFNfHtGAjQ&t=148s

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• EvidencePlease October 24, 2018 at 3:23 am

Rodney,

Unfortunately, your “explanation” / “analogy” of the earth, sun relative movements and positions is completely ridiculous.

Thx

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• Rodney Baker October 24, 2018 at 1:45 pm

EvidencePlease, Just like your handle applies, I have given you all the evidence you need to explore the reasoning I’ve given. If you want to do nothing but laugh it off, it is your problem. The fact remains, it is mechanically impossible for earth to be anything but facing opposite the sun every half year in a heliocentric universe. That is a fact, no way around it.

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• Nick October 24, 2018 at 3:18 pm

Rodney Baker – The stupidity of your argument (and I use that term carefully) lies in your assumption that every 24 hours any location on Earth is facing the same direction with respect to the background stars. This is simply not the case! As has been pointed out before in this thread:

“The diagram starts, “The earth makes a full rotation every 24 hours, therefore it will face the same direction at 12:00pm [sic] no matter where it is in it’s revolution round the sun.” This is simply NOT (emphasis) what the heliocentric model says! On average the Earth takes about 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds to make a full rotation with respect to the stars, but takes a further 3 minutes and 56 seconds to return to the same position with respect to the Sun. The extra time is needed BECAUSE OF the orbit around the Sun. So, if the Sun is directly overhead at noon, it continues to be.

The diagram either shows a complete misunderstanding of the timings involved or is a deliberate attempt to mislead.”

You ignore the difference between the “sidereal day” (one rotation w.r.t the stars) and the solar day (one rotation w.r.t. the sun). If you don’t believe this, track the location of stars away from the poles (so the effect is clearer) at the same time of (solar) day over the course of a year!

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• FactYouAll January 15, 2019 at 6:02 pm

Rodney,

You said: “Let’s take two people looking straight on eye to eye with each other, Without turning one way or the other, one person moves to the back of the second person, That person is now looking away from the other person or directly opposite from him. Any time two objects face each other, when one object move half way around the second object it will always end up facing the opposite direction. The same is true for the earth and the sun.”

Are you describing the earth and sun, with relative positions and movements just like the example of the 2 people, where there is no turning involved? Is this what you claim is evidence to refute the heliocentric model? I, for one, have never seen any claim that the earth and sun move relative to each other with no turning involved.

Thx.

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• Manny Clay August 15, 2016 at 10:01 pm Reply

Demitra N M could you plz contact me at manovclay1@yahoo.com. thank you Manny clay

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3. Manny Clay August 13, 2016 at 1:01 pm Reply

Joseph, I am not the administrator of this site. Having said that I do not “feel the earth move under my feet”, but I do see the sun, moon, and stars moving around us. At one time i did “visualise” the rotation of the earth, but now that I am awake I realize it was just a bad dream.

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4. SG Today August 14, 2016 at 4:18 am Reply

Manny,

As far as seeing things in the sky move, it raises a questions about what causes the movement observed? What is the cause of these movements, that is not an elaborate and convoluted explanation?

An additional complication is raised by the seasonal constellations, which vary throughout the year. What is the simple and everyday wording, more practical to the interested layman that explains these plain observations?

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5. Manny Clay August 14, 2016 at 12:01 pm Reply

SG, I do not know scientifically what causes these movements. I believe God set them in the heaven to give light and be for signs and seasons. He made the stars also. The sun moon and stars visibly move in a east to west direction when you view time lapse. One of the first things I became aware of that puzzled me was that in the heliocentric model which I beloved for 45 years the moon moves in the opposite direction I see it moving in. I don’t have answers for most things, but I do rule out what is impossible regardless of how dearly held it has been.

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• SG Today August 14, 2016 at 4:07 pm Reply

Manny,

For starters, the movements of the moon are well described by its orbital pattern and the daily rotation of the earth. These are movements understood very early by mankind.

Agriculture, which was responsible for the growth of civilization, was organized around moon observations and tracking. You could say we are here today because humans learned and relied on the moon to survive, and then thrive.

To ignore this foundation of humankind in favor of a flat earth can be a personal choice, but to claim not being able to understand such fundamental things about the related visible motions of the sky leads to a very weak position.

Humans have always embraced reality, and our curiosity and instincts leads us towards those ideas that together fit most or all the observations.

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6. Manny Clay August 14, 2016 at 6:54 pm Reply

SG, I suspect that the well described movements of the moon you speak of are based on the very same impossible ball rotating and revolving model which is the subject of this post. I hope that you receive eyes to see so that you also can embrace this true reality. Good day to you.

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• SG Today August 14, 2016 at 9:37 pm Reply

On this we agree: “I hope that you receive eyes to see so that you also can embrace reality”. Peace.

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• Nick August 15, 2016 at 7:40 am Reply

Manny, I too believe that God created the heavens and the Earth, but the “ball rotating and revolving model” is far from impossible. It fits ALL the evidence, even though at times some of the results may seem counter-intuitive.

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• Demitra M. N. August 17, 2016 at 12:12 pm

I wish to comment on the following comment, which was posted days earlier by Nick.

He said: –>”…the “ball rotating and revolving model” is far from impossible. It fits ALL the evidence, even though at times some of the results may seem counter-intuitive.” <– end quote.

My thoughts now:
On the assumption that ALL the evidence Nick is referring to is the mathematics, physics, and theoretical computations as put forth by science, I say this:

The problem with arguing from this standpoint is that for the most part the levels of math and physics that are being computed (by the heliocentric model) are actually describing the workings of reality from the HIGHER density/dimensional levels. It doesn't make it wrong, it's just not what we ever actually see with our 3D eyes.

On the other hand, the FE model is fundamentally addressing the PHYSICAL manifestation of these higher resonating frequencies at the point at which they coalesce into solid physical forms within the 3rd dimensional field. At the 3D level of our experience what is detected and perceived by the senses is precisely what the all FEers are identifying!

Essentially, the FE model directly addresses the things we can actually perceive in the world around us, while the Heliocentric model is abstractly defining the higher levels of reality which CAUSE these manifestations in the physical world but that, experientially speaking, are never perceived as such from inside it's lower frequency band. From the 3D frequency band we can only theorize and imagine what occurs on the higher levels of reality above it — and that is what the heliocentric model is addressing.

And so, for those who can grasp what I have just said, you have to admit that there is a certain folly in arguing that the FE model is wrong — likewise, for the Heliocentric model. To persist in such black and white thinking is to erroneously conclude that many of the things our senses pick-up from our environment are somehow mistaken, and should therefore be overlooked and/or ignored. Or, on the other hand, we get so materially oriented that we forget that there is much more to physical reality than meets the eye — literally, 3D energetically emerges out of the higher levels of reality and is therefore, highly dependent on these higher abstract levels of reality for it's very existence.

In a nut shell, depending on which level of reality we are looking at, we are each correct, as long as our model is being applied in the correct context.

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• Nick August 17, 2016 at 1:07 pm

Hi Demetra, I think it is clear that we come to this from a different perspective. From other postings it is clear you have a background with at least an interest in the likes of astrology and eastern religions. In your post you are using phrases such as “dimensional levels” and “the PHYSICAL manifestation of these higher resonating frequencies”, which make no sense to me from my western scientific background. As such, I may have totally misunderstood what you are saying!

Nonetheless, I have a couple of comments to make.

It is absolutely true that most of us live our lives in such a way that, for all intents and purposes, the flat Earth model is adequate to describe all that we see. This would have been particularly true for our ancestors, who would have lived out their lives living in one location, maybe only travelling a few miles away at any time during their lives. From this perspective, the FE model is adequate, and could even be said to be true.

BUT, this does not mean that the FE model is a valid model for the Earth. Once our ancestors started to travel, to communicate with people living at a distance from them and to try to understand the observations they made, the FE model was no longer adequate and was rejected. Travelling further distances would have, at times, meant travelling “over the horizon” (earlier sea transport would have kept very close to the coast line), seeing different stars as they travelled north or south, observing the Sun at different elevations at midday at different latitudes. It is these observations that brought them to realise that the Earth is a globe, even without understanding gravity or coming to any of the theories of science which have come later – it does not require “higher abstract levels of reality”.

Essentially I am saying that FE and globe Earth cannot BOTH be true. The question is, if I kept walking south long enough, would I end up at an edge, or back where I started? It cannot be both, and all the evidence tells us that the second answer is correct.

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• Demitra M. N. August 17, 2016 at 3:17 pm

Nick, in expressing myself as I did, I did it under the impression that because modern science does indeed address topics such as “dimensions” “resonance” “energetics” and “frequencies” that most scientific researchers would diligently attempt to embody these topics into their own chosen areas of enquiry. I take it from your response that this is not so. Pity.

I can tell as well that our respective knowledge as to humankind’s true roots is remarkably different one from the other. My own research into mankind’s overall historical past does not find it to be nearly as backward as we have been programmed to believe. Frankly, this is a critical factor in regards to all of this debate, because when we are certain that our ancestors were not as educated as we are at present, and that the sciences taught in our universities today are not deliberately corrupted in their classroom delivery, it is natural to believe that Man today possesses a more complete picture because he is certain that he is now more evolved, when the truth is quite the opposite.

Regardless, I think it is unfortunate that despite the gulf between our perceptions of reality, past and present, what really blocks communication in this debate, and is fundamentally the cause of many heated arguments, is the certainty that only one’s personal ideology can be accurate and everyone else must simply be wrong. I encounter this myopia from both sides of the argument and is most unfortunate because both sides have so much to offer each other.

From my point of view, both sides are intricately entwined at the subatomic level and in this regard, yes, science does require understanding the higher abstract levels of reality. In fact, modern scientific theories ARE speaking to that higher abstract levels of reality and apparently is not even aware that it is doing so.

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• Nick August 17, 2016 at 4:28 pm

Demetra, you are right that these words (dimensions, resonance, frequency etc.) are used in modern science, but using scientific words does not make an idea scientific. The phrase “3D frequency band” uses scientific words, but makes no sense according to any science that I am aware of (please correct me if I’m wrong). As a Christian I agree with you that the ideas, concepts and theories of modern science are not the whole story. For instance, I believe that prayer works, but it does not have a SCIENTIFIC explanation. Science can answer some of the “how”s and “where”s, but doesn’t address (and, I believe, CAN’T address) the “why”s.

If I understand you correctly, you are extending the discussion into the underlying “why”s of the universe around us. To do so is perfectly valid, but takes us out of science and into philosophy/religion. Just using scientific words does not bring it within the scope of science.

The question of the shape of the Earth, however, is a simply scientific question. There MUST be one correct answer to my question above. All the evidence points to the Earth being (roughly) a sphere.

On your other point, I strongly believe that our ancestors were no less intelligent than we are today (but, no more intelligent). What has increased in the DATA available to them. The most important stepping points for this were writing and later printing, which allowed people to share data geographically and over time. (As a side note, the internet has vastly increased the VOLUME of DATA, but also decreased the QUALITY of the data.) I think this adequately supports the outline set out above.

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• Demitra M. N. August 17, 2016 at 5:10 pm

Nick,

1- That you personally have never found reason to string together the words “3D frequency band” does not make it unscientific.

2- Science CAN explain why prayer works, it is only our modern paradigm with its hidden agendas that ascertains that such information remain solely in the domain of the “religious”.

3- Science is by all accounts a New Religion.

4- The shape of the earth is every man’s concern, and not just science. However, real science would take all evidence into account not just what fits science’s programme du jour.

5- As to your last point, it is not the volume or quality of data that determines Man’s evolutionary state but the state of his mind — his willingness to know truth no matter where it leads and his capacity to learn, unlearn, and relearn, when and if necessary.

As I do not wish to be accused of deliberately directing this topic into esoteric areas of which others are uncomfortable, I conclude my own participation in this discussion now. Thank you for your time.

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• psybin August 17, 2016 at 10:54 pm

People did travel all over the world way back in history. The current FE map (the one the UN, pilots etc. use) was drawn 1,000 years ago and is accurate enough that it’s still used today. Why do airline flight times and distances make sense on a FE map and not a globe? Why did Admiral Byrd claim he traveled about 60k miles around the Antarctic wall, which is very accurate on a FE map, if on a globe it should only be about 1,800mi? There’s just so many questions and things that don’t make sense unless you use a FE perspective. I keep bouncing back and forth between globe and FE but I’m leaning toward FE.

I just found out the other day that the 10k year old (in written form, oral form goes back maybe 30k years) Hindu Vedas describe a globe earth, and they knew about quantum physics, anti-gravity (mercury imploding/expanding vortex engine) spacecraft, and so much more. That’s about the only thing that keeps me from completely going over to FE.

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• bmwmechanic August 18, 2016 at 1:24 am

“Why do airline flight times and distances make sense on a FE map and not a globe?”

psybin, can you provide examples? Here’s an example that other commenters have pointed out that shows clearly that the FE map is wrong: Quantas Flights 26 and 28 which go to/from Sydney and Santiago in less than 15 hours. This would be impossible on the Gleason map. Similarly, South African Airways flights 223/225 go to/from Sao Paulo and Johannesburg in less than 9 hours. Again, this would be impossible if the FE map was accurate.

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7. Manny Clay August 15, 2016 at 9:29 am Reply

Brother Nick, the heliocentric model may fit as mathematical evidence but when it contradicts empiracle evidence which fits the definition of the scientific method I am going with that. As to matters of faith the scriptures state that God established the earth in such a way that it cannot be moved.. As you know the sun and moon came a few days later. Job stated that God hung the earth upon nothing. This Hebrew word hung is elsewhere utilized when describing the placement of shields. These two scriptures, Joshua 10, and the scripture stating that God made the sun and moon (not a tilted, rotating revolving earth) for signs and seasons coupled with much on this site has made me a believer in a flat earth. God bless you, Nick. Manny

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• Nick August 15, 2016 at 11:09 am Reply

Manny, I share your desire to honour the God of the Bible, but I believe that you are misreading the Bible as a book of “scientific” facts. I could go into this further, but at the moment time does not allow. Where I cannot agree, though, is that the heliocentric model contradicts ANY empirical evidence. As I have said in other comments on this page, the diagram used here is either a clear misunderstanding of the claims of the heliocentric model or is deliberately misleading. As a follower of Christ I hold truth to be of vital importance and, sadly, I find little of it in the claims for FE.

I freely acknowledge that some scientific claims may not make sense at first sight and that scientific education must bear much of the blame for so many misunderstandings. I also acknowledge that scientists can be guilty of pushing INTERPRETATION of scientific data too far. For instance, it is sometimes claimed that “dark matter exists” when a truly scientific statement would be “current models for the universe, as observed, strongly suggest that there is mass present which cannot be seen”.

If you do think there are examples of real contradictions, please point them out to me. I do welcome an open, honest and well-mannered discussion of these issues.

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8. jwlpeace August 16, 2016 at 2:59 pm Reply

Good discussion and part of the reason I am reposting comments again is to encourage this kind of civil discourse on the FE model. If I am wrong on my postings, I want to correct asap and this is one I can see both sides of the debate.
Maybe you all are forgetting about the procession of the equinox in the helio head model i regards to axial tilt. Because of the 23.5 degree tilt we are said to have our seasons, with a fixed position of the sun. The hemisphere on front side of the tilt is facing the Sun and is summer time while rotating at “close to” 24 hours in one day. (minutes are irrelevant to this point) Noontime summer in Tokyo and exactly six months later is noon NYC (or wherever is exactly 12 hours opposite). Irregardless of the fixed Sun, the Earth rotation should have its “high noon” on the opposite side of Earth after the Earth has traveled……some 266 million miles… 12 pm in Tokyo is 12 pm in NYC with the same exact sun position 6 months later time. It about the Earth spinning, independent of the Sun, that is the point, not the misleading “sun at noon” false premise. Thoughts?

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• Manny Clay August 16, 2016 at 4:06 pm Reply

If I understand Nick (and perhaps the others) correctly, if the earth were merely rotating on its axis with no revolution around the sun it would take the 23h, 56m, and 4s but since it does in the helio model it takes the full 24. Per the graphic we would be six hours off at the fall equinox. 91 days x 4 minutes is approx 6 hours. Another six hours a the winter solstice yields 12 hours. The math appears to work out if I am looking at it correctly but no small task to prove via the scientific method…

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• bmwmechanic August 17, 2016 at 9:18 pm

Here is the math. It’s very simple.

A day is 23h54m4s or 86044 seconds, which is 3m56s less than 24 hours. 3m56s is 236 seconds.

A year is 365.24219 days. (That extra quarter-day is why we have leap years.)

Half a year is 182.621095 days.

236 seconds times 182.621095 days is 43098.57842 seconds.

43098.57842 is 718.3096403333 minutes.

718.3096403333 minutes is 11.9718273388 hours ,or 11 hours 58 minutes 12 seconds.

So, using jwlpeace’s example, Tokyo is facing the Sun at noon, and half a year later it is once again facing the Sun at noon, because the Earth has rotated an extra half day (or 11 hours 58 minutes 12 seconds) during that half year.

So, as anyone can see based on the math, the timing of noon at various places and times is fully consistent with a round Earth going around the Sun.

“minutes are irrelevant to this point”

I think I have demonstrated that the minutes (and seconds) are very much relevant.

Can anyone point out where the math is wrong? Using math, not meta physics I mean – math is nice because there’s no way to change definitions or come to different conclusions. We’re either in a universe where 2+2=4 or we aren’t.

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• SG Today August 17, 2016 at 2:30 am Reply

jwlpeace,

Thanks for posting this. I thought that language was clear. However, I didn’t quite get the significance of the “some 266 million miles” mention, and how this connects with the main “noon” topic.

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• Nick August 17, 2016 at 8:27 am

jwlpeace, I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand what you are saying here. Could you try to rephrase it? It is quite possible I’m just being a bit thick! 😦

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9. Ruwan Wijekoon September 16, 2016 at 7:20 am Reply

Now when the earth is rotating around the sun

1) At day “ONE”, when the sun is at the highest point above the earth (Noon), you use your digital clock to set the time to 12.00 pm, so at day 0 your noon occurred at 12 PM

2) At day “TWO “Even though the earth takes only 23 hrs 56 mins 4s to complete one revolution , you have to take in to consideration the fact that the earth rotates around the sun. Therefore unlike in my previous comment, after 23 hrs 56 mins 4s, my solar noon would not occur at 11.56.04 AM, but it would take another 236 seconds for the noon to occur, which is 12PM

3) After day “THREE” again it will take 23 hrs 56 mins 4s to complete one revolution, but since the earth is rotating around the sun, after 23 hrs 56 mins 4s, my solar noon would not occur at 11.56.04 AM, but it would take another 236 seconds for the noon to occur, which is 12PM

so as you can see that when the days go by, even after six months, according to your digital clock, the noon occurs at 12 PM always.

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10. Keith C. December 5, 2016 at 8:14 pm Reply

OK, here is the real answer. It is the year that is short by basically a 1/4 of a day every year. Has nothing to do with the hours. What I’m saying is when the earth orbits the sun, after exactly 365 days, it hasn’t gotten back to the point where the year started, it is 6 hours short. So this accumulates for four years, then we add 1 day to keep our seasons straight. Now, as the earth processes around the sun, noon is always when you are facing the sun. What that means is that after 3 months, we have lost 6 hours, and after 6 months that is 12 hours, due to the fact that the earth’s spin rate is 23 hours 56 mins and 4 secs/day. But the position of the sun has changed by 180 (relative to the earth), so our noon is still facing the sun.

You may be confusing sidereal day with solar day, but UTC time is calculated on solar days.

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11. steve pesce February 8, 2017 at 8:45 pm Reply

I think this is an excellent discussion. The one thing I want to add is that the Moon always faces the Earth despite spinning on its axis about once a month. The Earth always faces the Sun despite spinning about once per day. I find these two fact to be extremely unlikely probabilities. Yet, I see from the math that these are the actualities (in a heliocentric model). The sheer unlikeliness of these two scenarios is what I find distressing.

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12. steve pesce February 8, 2017 at 9:58 pm Reply

One other thing… So, when people were defining the number of hours and seconds to account for a “day”, they created units adding up to 24 hours. But it was actually 23hours 56minutes and 4seconds. Why would they do that? And why would that be the exact amount required to create the perfect offset to keep the Earth facing the sun at noon (in the same geographic location) all year round. That seems particularly odd.

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13. steve pesce February 8, 2017 at 10:48 pm Reply

“In 1884, the universal day of 24 hours was proposed and accepted at the International Meridian Conference, which also began to standardize time zones.”

People in 1884 determined to create this offset? Does that strike anyone else as odd?

“Today, the standard definition for time is no longer based on the rotation of the Earth around the Sun, but on atomic time. A second is defined as: “9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.”

Clearly that was picked to fit the length of a second.

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• Keith Chamberlin February 9, 2017 at 4:34 am Reply

The 24 hour day was decided to make noon face the sun every day at noon. The sidereal day, which is a little shorter is the actual time it takes for the earth to rotate 360 degrees, using the measurement of 1 second as defined by the 24 hour day. Wikipedia has an ok explanation here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidereal_time Basically, if you had two cameras and 1 was set up to take a picture at solar noon every day, it would take a picture of the sun. If the other was set up to take a picture at sidereal noon, after 6 months it would take a picture looking directly away from the sun. Sidereal time is used for stargazing, but isn’t too useful otherwise.

Twenty four hour day was determined to be the easiest for the masses to understand. Unfortunately, it isn’t that convenient for years as the earth takes 365.25 days to orbit the sun, that is why we have leap day every 4 years.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 5:53 pm

Leap seconds are even added every so often to keep the atomic clocks in alignment with actual time.

But you’re suggesting that the actual rotation of the Earth is in perfect synchronization with the relative position of the sun at noon? Seems a stunning coincidence.

Does any other planet or moon in our solar system do this? Jupiter? Moons of Saturn? I suspect not.

But yet both the Earth and Moon align perfectly; the Earth so it’s always noon on the correct side and the moon so it always faces the Earth. Just being able to measure it, doesn’t make it any less odd.

And since the Earth has an elliptical orbit, shouldn’t there be a relativity variance as well? The speed/time travels should be slightly askew depending on the path around the sun. Shouldn’t atomic clocks need to account for that?

Seems highly unlikely 1884 technology was up to the task.

And noon hasn’t changed over millennia? Or has it?

I read that the moon is pulling away from the Earth, a tiny bit a thousand years, so why is the Earth’s orbit not also varying? I presume it must be.

Let me look for any other planets/moons that turn perfectly to stay facing one another or the sun.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 5:57 pm

Callisto is also tidally locked.

I am surprised and proven wrong regarding moons.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 5:59 pm
• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:01 pm

Parent Body Tidally-locked Satellites
Sun Mercury[18][19][11]
Earth Moon
Mars Phobos · Deimos[20]
Jupiter Metis · Adrastea · Amalthea · Thebe · Io · Europa · Ganymede · Callisto
Saturn Pan · Atlas · Prometheus · Pandora · Epimetheus · Janus · Mimas · Enceladus · Telesto · Tethys · Calypso · Dione · Rhea · Titan · Iapetus
Uranus Miranda · Ariel · Umbriel · Titania · Oberon
Neptune Proteus · Triton
Pluto Charon (Pluto is itself locked to Charon)

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:05 pm

“The planet’s rotation is slowing down overall because of tidal forces between Earth and the moon. Roughly every 100 years, the day gets about 1.4 milliseconds, or 1.4 thousandths of a second, longer.”

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• Keith Chamberlin February 9, 2017 at 6:08 pm

There is NO coincidence. It was setup SPECIFICALLY to be that way. Totally intentional.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:20 pm

2002 AA29 Is kind of interesting. Still no references to other planets having synchronous orbits with the sun, however, the likelihoid of it seems greater to me now — based on the lunar gravity effects referenced.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:25 pm
• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:27 pm

Mercury

Finally, in some cases where the orbit is eccentric and the tidal effect is relatively weak, the smaller body may end up in a so-called spin-orbit resonance, rather than being tidally locked. Here, the ratio of the rotation period of a body to its own orbital period is some simple fraction different from 1:1. A well known case is the rotation of Mercury, which is locked to its own orbit around the Sun in a 3:2 resonance.

Many exoplanets (especially the close-in ones) are expected to be in spin–orbit resonances higher than 1:1. A Mercury-like terrestrial planet can, for example, become captured in a 3:2, 2:1, or 5:2 spin-orbit resonance, with the probability of each being dependent on the orbital eccentricity.[9]

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:35 pm

Sounds like this is proposing that all the planets in the solar system will not only be brought into some form of synchronous orbit, but will eventually become tidally locked.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 6:36 pm

Based on what I just read, I sounds like my previous points are invalid. Tidal locking and synchronous orbits are commonplace in the universe.

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 5:55 pm
14. Tom February 9, 2017 at 12:42 am Reply

Steve,

Do you believe reality should be different so that you are not distressed, or that things never seem odd to you? 😦

Or should reality be what it is, and people should try to accept these minor irritations? 🙂

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• Steve pesce February 9, 2017 at 3:33 am Reply

No, but I think weird coincidences that defy all rationality are to be questioned.

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15. Eye of Anno August 2, 2017 at 12:25 pm Reply

Let me explain it simply……
The Earth does one full rotation every 23hrs 56mins, which means we ‘save’ four minutes per day. Therefore, every six months or 182 days those saved minutes equate to 12 hours, so the Earth is actually facing the opposite direction every six months. At least that’s the ‘official’ reason. 😉

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• poolman August 2, 2017 at 1:46 pm Reply

Simply put, my clock doesn’t know we save those minutes.

My calendar adjusts for your perceived spin every 4 years, not every 2. If I gain 12.13333333 hours in 6 months… well you try the math.

It doesn’t explain why 12 pm is midday and six months later it is midnight.

Does your clock speed up and then slow back down daily?

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• Keith C August 5, 2017 at 1:38 pm

Poolman you are so wrong, but it is only because you don’t understand. A solar day is how long it takes the earth to spin and the sun to be in the same place in the sky. That time is 24 hours, so the sun is always the same place in the sky at noon, because time was defined to be like that. A second, hour, and day were defined by the sun being in the same location every day. It isn’t just something that accidentally occurred. It is specifically set up so that each day is the same. Watch this video, it explains it well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6bKJEFDUY

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• keith c August 2, 2017 at 2:20 pm Reply

Poolman, it does explain it. It’s called a sideral day. To have noon ALWAYS be facing the sun, the second, minute and hour was ‘defined’ to make it work this way. We didn’t have clocks first with a predefined second. We MADE it that way. It’s not by accident. It still isn’t exactly right, that is why they correct time occasionally.

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• poolman August 5, 2017 at 5:34 pm

Yes, I know a minute is a construct. Yes, they are ‘designed’ to break a day into equal parts. But you cannot have it both ways. Is the day 23 hours and 56 minutes or 24 hours?

If the ‘saving’ of minutes explains how we face the sun in 6 months, what happened to our MADE construct?

Do you think the ball spins at different speeds?

The earth is motionless.

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• Keith C August 5, 2017 at 10:47 pm

You are still not getting it. To spin 360 degrees with respect to the distance stars that essentially are not moving, it takes 23 hours 56 minutes. A solar day is 24 hours and that is what we use for our clocks as a day. So every day at noon, the sun is the same longitudinal position. The earth can’t change speeds, the mass is way too great and it would take an immense amount of energy. The earth rotates as it revolves around the sun. It rotates a little more than 360 degrees for each 24 hour period.

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• poolman August 6, 2017 at 2:14 am

That’s a lot of spin to keep track of. But you are still mistaken.

But stars definitely move. Distant is relative. Surely you’ve seen the pictures of star trails from time lapse photography. They always pivot around the north star that hasn’t moved in millennia. We see the same constellations year after year in season. Impossible if we were careening through space.

The earth doesn’t move. No motion can be detected in it. None.

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• Keith C August 6, 2017 at 3:27 am

There is little spin to keep track of. In 24 hours the earth rotates so that the sun in the same position as it was 24 hours earlier. The only reason for leap days is that the orbit of the earth around the sun doesn’t take exactly 365 days. Yes, there are star trails, but they move in opposite directions in the southern hemisphere. Can’t happen on flat earth.

The earth does move. High accuracy gyroscopes prove that. We have to position them north south so that the earth’s rate doesn’t interfere with the drift measurements. Very important to know when you point telescopes at an object for hours or days at a time. You see different constellations in the southern hemisphere than you do in the northern hemisphere, and some of each of them near the equator. So flat earth is busted yet again. Please refute any of these observations that are consistent with a spherical earth.

The sun actually sets, it goes below the horizon, and if the earth is flat then the whole earth would have night at the same time. That doesn’t happen. I’ve taken pictures to prove to myself that the sun is the same size all the time. If it changed size, that would mean it is small and/or close to earth. It is not, it stays the same size at noon and later afternoon. That means the sun is far away and that means if the earth is flat we would never have darkness or night.

Another proof. If the earth is flat then we would always see the sun. Even at a height of 4000 miles, which I have seen quoted, the sun would never go closer than 18 degrees to the horizon, assuming the earth is 12,000 miles across. Yet we see it go below the horizon. It doesn’t go to the vanishing point as some claim, it would have to become infinitely small to go to vanishing point. It doesn’t do that. Earth is spherical.

There is 24 hours of sunlight in Antarctica. I have seen it, went there in November of 2005. I saw the sun above the horizon and to the south of me while there. That is impossible on the ‘flat earth’ map.

The flat earth map is only a projection, even says so in the patent application. The reason the longitude lines spread out as you go towards the south pole is that this is one way of representing a sphere. As you move longitudinal, every degree is approximately 66 miles. If you look at Australia, which is approximately the same dimensions north/south and east/west. You will see that the map distorts things and is not accurate.

The claim of the sun being something like a spotlight and not a sphere is totally not true. As the sun progresses around the earth, or across in the case of a flat earth, the sun would start to appear like an ellipse. It does not. It is always a circle.

The illuminated part of the earth is circular, according to flat earth model. If you look up the sunset times in the southern hemisphere, you will see that during their summer, northern hemisphere’s winter, that points much further south, but on the same longitudinal line, have sun set times LATER than places closer to the path of the center of the sun. This is impossible if the sun illuminates the flat earth with a circle.

The sun can’t hover above the earth indefinitely. This violates the laws of physics and would need an infinite amount of energy to do so.

The stars are always the same distance apart from each other. You can track them across the sky and as they go below the horizon, they actually set, just like the sun. They don’t go to a vanishing point.

You can’t see Polaris from south of the equator, and there are stars that we can’t see because the star fields are different. The earth spins with the north axis pointing towards Polaris, many pictures show this. Likewise, there are pictures of the earth rotating around Sigmas Octantis, the equivalent of the Polaris for the southern hemisphere. The pictures show the star trails going opposite between the 2 stars, but consistent with the spin of the earth.

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• FactYouAll August 6, 2017 at 3:57 am

poolman,
Regarding star trails; are you referring to North Pole trails, South Pole trails (that spin in opposite direction), or equator trails (which combine NP, SP, and linear trails)?

Regarding any North Star movement; please share the source of the star’s position coordinates for the time period you refer to. There may be a flaw in teh data that needs checking.

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• poolman August 6, 2017 at 2:42 pm

“There is little spin to keep track of”

Wrong Keith C, there’s a lot of spin to keep track of in your theory. You spin things both ways. First you say distant stars “essentially are not moving”. Then you claim stars move in a different direction north vs south.

“The earth does move.”

Where is your proof? Every repeatable test proves otherwise. Gyroscopes and compasses work off a flat and stationary plane. Still water proves the earth motionless.

“The sun actually sets”

I agree. It rises and it sets. Thus we have sunrise and sunset. The earth is motionless. We can mark the times of the season, as ancient structures do, based entirely on the sun’s rotation in the sky. Of course it goes out of view. Again, convergence is a term you should familiarize yourself with. The “energy” you claim needed to keep the sun suspended is much less than your spin theory requires and more magnetic in nature.

“That means the sun is far away and that means if the earth is flat we would never have darkness or night.”

The horizon is the place where earth meets sky. It is horizontal and converges at eye level. Modern optics capture the true look of stars and bring ships back in view that “go over the horizon”. Perspective and convergence are some concepts you should explore. The point at which things are visible is based on distance, light, lensing, and atmospheric conditions.

I suspect you cannot read a newspaper from across the room. Imagine it a mile away… 2 miles…

“You can’t see Polaris from south of the equator”

Polaris can be seen 23 degrees south of the equator. Not on a ball.

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• Keith C August 6, 2017 at 6:11 pm

I see you can’t refute any of the observations I listed. Claiming to see Polaris at 23 degrees south is an out right lie. A real flat earth answer would be refraction from the atmosphere, but if you can see Polaris, you are the only one! Ha ha ha, a feable attempt at best. Try again. Oh, I’m a photographer and engineer so I do know what perspective and convergence are. I know you don’t know what you are talking about. The horizon coming up to eye level must mean the earth isn’t flat as you say it comes up.

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• poolman August 7, 2017 at 12:47 am

Only the ones I cared to address, as you are all over the board.

Let’s talk about your “essentially not moving” and then “moving in different directions” stars. I guess you debunked yourself there.

Let’s talk about your claim the earth moves. You haven’t shown proof. What kind of engineer are you?. Do you run model trains?

Let’s start there. Where is your proof the earth is moving? Show us the proof. Every experiment I have done or checked out proves it motionless. Refute away.

Or maybe your photographic skills are better honed than your engineering abilities.

I have much experience with photography as it was my minor in college. That was way before it went digital. I have done quite a lot of picture taking and film developing over the years. Here’s an interesting one you cannot debunk. The world record for the longest distance photographed is 443 km. It proves the earth is certainly flat there.

https://beyondhorizons.eu/2016/08/03/pic-de-finestrelles-pic-gaspard-ecrins-443-km/

So motionless and flat. 2 debunks. We already agree the sun moves as do the stars.

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• Keith C August 7, 2017 at 1:49 am

Hundreds of years of observations say we are moving. The fact is we see stars streak across the sky. This means either we are moving or they are moving. I’ve taken photos of our star, the sun, at midday and later in the afternoon. It remains the same size. This means it has to be very far away. If it is very far away, then if the earth were a flat plane, it would never get dark. Period. Make the assumption that we are moving and spinning and many of the things that flat earth can’t explain suddenly work. See pics here.https://plus.google.com/photos/114491516978765292815/album/6274546043092324305 You can right click on each and see the data. If the sun were close, like 3000 miles, the one late in the day would be about 1/4 the size. That isn’t the case.

Oh, and I’m a much better engineer than photographer. I have an electrical engineering from the University of Maryland, in 1988. You can take all the photos you want, but it doesn’t make you a good photographer. I’ve taken about 150,000 photos in the last 4 years and do understand perspective.

If you think you have really discovered something, you should win the Nobel Prize! Be alas, people just laugh at you because you don’t understand physics. I’m trying to teach you but you don’t see to listen.I don’t think you have done any research outside of listening to flat earthers. The flat earth map is a joke. Australia is almost the same distance north south as it is east west. Look at the map, it is rectangular big time. Not correct. Earth is not flat.

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• FactYouAll August 7, 2017 at 3:29 am

poolman,

It seems disingenuous to partially quote someone to dispute their language. I see the full phrase as “To spin 360 degrees with respect to the distance stars that essentially are not moving”, not just “essentially are not moving” as you complain. The “moving’ is “with respect to the distant stars”.

And then you try to compare your erroneous quote with “moving in different directions”. Clearly, the original phrase was “star trails, but they move in opposite directions in the southern hemisphere”. Wow, misdirection found!!

If you need to make false claims to support your position, I guess there isn’t much factual detail you can refer to. Making stuff up doesn’t cut it.

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• Mike August 7, 2017 at 10:06 am

poolman – Ironically, the record long distance photograph PROVES that the Earth isn’t flat! If you plug the observation height and distance into the curve calculator at Metabunk (https://www.metabunk.org/curve/) you will find that, when standard (expected in NORMAL CONDITIONS) refraction is taken into account, 3,721m should be hidden. Barre des Ecrins is 4102 m, so you would expect it to be visible on the globe Earth, if visibility is far enough.

Why does this prove the Earth isn’t flat? Because if, in particular circumstances, atmospheric conditions allow us to see over 400km, the whole FE reason why our vision is limited collapses! Why do ships disappear only a few kilometres from the coast? On a clear day you should see them over 100km away (calculated using angular resolution of the eye). The beaches of the west coast of Anglesey (N. Wales) should be dominated by the view of Ireland, only about 100km away! But YOU DON’T SEE THEM, because the Earth is a globe!

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• poolman August 7, 2017 at 2:19 pm

Keith C, “Hundreds of years of observations’ must have come up with some real experiments that are repeatable. And I already admitted the stars move as does the sun. Maybe name just 1 of these observations proving movement of the earth that is still observable/provable/repeatable. Otherwise you are merely expressing your opinion or simple hearsay and have not offered real tangible proof.

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FactYouAll, You claim you are interested in truth and discovery, but the bulk of your posts indicate otherwise. I quit addressing you after you failed to answer a few simple questions posed to you to clarify your position. I see you now trying to support Keith C’s weak arguments. Maybe you can be helpful and will provide a link to tangible proof of the earth moving, since you too seem to believe it does.

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Mike, mick west (megabunk) is probably the best know government shill on the internet. His vast amount of videos have been debunked by many truth seekers over the years. I don’t use his material. There are other curve calculators and diagrams showing what the curvature should be if we live on a ball. The formula is 8 inches per mile squared. It would make that mountain impossible to see on a globe. It would be very evident side-to-side while viewing the horizon over water, as one can often see vast miles spanning left to right.

You mention refraction. I don’t think you know what that term means. Refraction is the bending and deflection of light.

The photographic distance record is for capturing real objects and actual images, not illusions, reflections, or other visual anomalies. You don’t see clearly for hundreds of miles due entirely to atmospheric conditions and lens limitations.

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• keith c August 7, 2017 at 5:16 pm

Ah, now we are getting somewhere. What is your real and tangible proof? Oh, yeah, you say you can see Polaris from 23 degrees south. That’s proof enough for me…uh, no it isn’t. So if the stars are going around the earth like the sun, how come they don’t bunch up near the horizon? It’s a very small angle, like 18 degrees or less compared with 90 degrees when they are above. Stars don’t do this. As far as a spinning globe, how come people weigh less at the equator than at the poles? The earth’s spin rate is so low, it is 0.25 degrees in a minute, or 24 times slower than the minute hand on the clock. You think you can feel that motion? It is also 0.0041677 degrees per second. Slow.

The moon is spherical. You know how we know? The craters on the moon make shadows near the edge, but not the ones in the center. We see other planets and they spin and are spherical. I guess earth is just special and does neither of these? Get a clue. Please learn something real and tangible.

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• FactYouAll August 7, 2017 at 11:04 pm

poolman,

I’ve carefully reviewed this thread, and could find no questions that were directed to me. In fact, it is only in this last post that I see such a reference. If I’ve missed a question here, then I’d like a chance to read it and consider a response.

As far as supporting Mike or anyone else, well, that’s just not true. I did address your comments to Mike, but I was only talking about your words, not anything from anyone else. I stand by just what I wrote.

I’ve also made no claims here about earth moving; mostly about the observations in the night sky, such as star trails. Speaking of which, there are clearly a few questions I asked that you have not answered.

If answering questions is important to you, please feel free to pony up and stand-up for your words. I’d prefer to think you’re that type of person; I guess time will tell.

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• keith c August 8, 2017 at 8:45 pm

Poolman, I give you real tangible proof. I show you pictures I took, with my Nikon D7100 Camera, with the same lens on the same day showing that the size of the sun is consistent all day long. This means it is far away, which means that one of the basic flat earth constructs is that the sun is close to the earth and 32 miles across. My photos show this can NOT be the case. Maybe you can provide some tangible proof the sun is small? The way some flat earther came up with this crazy idea is by taking one measurement, which goes against the principle of scientific method.

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• Mike August 7, 2017 at 11:44 pm

poolman – You refuse to use the metabunk calculator because you think Mick West is a shill. Well then, I think you need to show where the calculations err, or does FE trigonometry work differently?

I am very aware of what refraction is, unfortunately, you are not. It is to do with the bending of light, but not deflection of light. Refraction produces real images, not “illusions, reflections, or other visual anomalies”. Just as well, because refraction is how the lenses in cameras (and our eyes) work! Light travels very slightly slower in dense air than thinner air. Air is densest nearest the ground and gets thinner as you go higher, this produces a lens effect, bending light towards the ground, extending our view over the curved surface of the Earth.

“You don’t see clearly for hundreds of miles due entirely to atmospheric conditions and lens limitations.” Well, from the image you found, at least sometimes, YOU DO!

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16. Stu August 11, 2017 at 12:18 pm Reply

At last common sense prevails. Obvious for even the smallest mind.

Keep up the GOOD work.

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• keith c August 11, 2017 at 3:49 pm Reply

Ah Stu, but you forget, we have an extra 4 minutes each day! So what does that mean? 4 minutes times 180 days gets you EXACTLY 12 hours. So every 180 days, our earth ‘over-rotates’, 180 degrees, so we are always facing the sun. A second, minute and hour were defined such that at noon we always face the sun. It HAS to be that way because it was determined that way. It isn’t some accident.

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• Stu August 11, 2017 at 5:14 pm

Hey Keith, don’t you think it’s amazing that the North Star is in perfect sync with the Earth and follows us around the solar system? Imagine the odds of that actually being possible in the orbital universe that we supposedly live in?

I can (non)sense you are due a big win on the lottery.!

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• Keith August 11, 2017 at 5:31 pm

Nah, it is just so far away that the distance is does nice is not perceptible.

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• Stu August 11, 2017 at 6:34 pm

Keith, here is a photograph I took myself from King Edward Point South Georgia when I was based there providing the communications link back to the Falkland Islands and also acting as the weather station for that region.

The photograph was taken facing North East, the suns small isn’t it?

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=d2a9fe1f73e78d7328027757c3a4d5fcd3fd6d08.1372227

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• keith c August 11, 2017 at 7:05 pm

Not sure why you posted the pics, but here are 2 pics of the sun, one around noon, and one around 5 in the afternoon, and the sun is the same size. https://plus.google.com/photos/114491516978765292815/album/6274546043092324305 I had to use a heavy filter to see that the sun is actually spherical because there were no clouds, otherwise you would get a picture like this. https://www.tes.com/lessons/julMkTAorMZuDg/the-sun-by-maddi

Yes, the sun is small in your pic, depends on what camera you use. If it is a cell phone the field of view is pretty wide, and that makes distant things seem smaller than they should be. It’s something called lens compression. You can read about it here. http://www.photocrati.com/the-curious-case-of-lens-compression/
When you zoom in, things in the background look bigger than a picture taken with a smaller zoom (shorter lens, ie 24mm is wide angle, where 50mm is about what we see with our eyes). So, if you took another picture where you zoomed in on the mountains, the sun would get ‘more’ larger than the mountains, depending on how far away you are, it may not be noticeable over that long of a distance, I’ve never experimented with lens compression at long distances. At that above link, they baseline the size of the woman, try to make it the same size in each pic, although I think it is a little off, but the size of the guy changes more dramatically, and even more so, the building is MUCH larger. I think this effect is more noticable when using magnification, but basically I’m saying the sun looks small here because you used a wide angle lens. I can easily recreate the same thing.

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• Stu August 11, 2017 at 7:22 pm

One more photo I took myself Keith. It’s a photograph of that Jesuit arse kissing freemason Henry Shackleton’s grave. Best place for him.!

I know what you university types are like, you may want to put it on your mantle piece.

http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=91887157beac0a4fbbae882b15f55e3d4cf5111f.1986374

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• Keith C August 13, 2017 at 1:48 am

Not sure why you want to post pictures of freemasons graves. I thought all you flat earthers were clinging to some religious stuff, but you seem to throw freemasons under the bus. Why is that? I mean that as a serious question. They are religious too, so what has given them such a bad rap with you guys? I hear people mention someone was a free mason and I really could give a crap. Really, could you answer what the issue is? I’ve wondered for quite a while. There are no free masons as far as I know in NASA, but some keep their religious beliefs to themselves because it really isn’t appropriate in the workplace. There is even a bible club at GSFC, so all the FEtards that claim NASA people are satanic worshippers couldn’t be further from the truth. But I wonder how satanic and freemason can both be mentioned and they are very different.

Oh, and the days aren’t 4 minutes longer, they are actually 24 hours from sunrise to sunrise, or sunset to sunset, or midnight to midnight. It is always 24 hours. It just turns out that the rotation is just a little further than 360 degrees. I accept the fact that you don’t understand, but seems you have trouble with that fact, but you should be OK with the fact that you don’t understand everything, no one understands everything. Some scientists have no idea how to swing a hammer, and they shouldn’t either as they are not likely to be very dexterous. We all have the things we do well, yours probably isn’t understand of celestial objects and events.

One more reason the earth isn’t flat, or maybe more of an observation that supports a spherical earth orbiting the sun is that tonight there is a perseid meteor shower. We know and predict these things based on the theory that we orbit the sun. We travel through the debris field of a comet that comes around very irregularly. Can your flat earth scientists predict these things? There are many different meteor showers throughout the year, leonids, draconids, etc. But seriously get yourself a planisphere, you can easily print out some paper and make one yourself, and you can learn about how the constellations change during the year. Do FEtards understand why that happens? It is because we orbit the sun that we don’t see some things during certain times of the year.

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• jwlpeace August 13, 2017 at 4:17 am

So glad you have it all figured out
and we’re just blowing smoke up everyone’s skirts
oh yea, for the ancients, who we still have little understanding of how they built the pyramids and such,
were all Flat Earthers…i’ll stay in their good company rather than stay ignorant, numb and dumb.

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• Keith C August 13, 2017 at 4:43 am

You don’t have to stay ignorant numb and dumb. You can learn some physics and realize how the real world works. You have to realize how ridiculous FE is, with zero proof, and so many real world observations that support a spherical earth. If you ignore the facts then you can make anything seem real, like the world is ruled by owls or something. Just make up anything, but why FE? It isn’t going to get you anything, except a few chuckles from people that know better.

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• Mike August 11, 2017 at 10:28 pm

Stu – Yes a grave is the best place for Shackleton, seeing as he is DEAD!

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• FactYouAll August 11, 2017 at 8:47 pm Reply

Stu,

Ah yes, common sense. I guess that might include the common sense that claimed the world was made of 4 elements: water, air, fire, and earth.

Or maybe the medical theory that said the human body was affected by the 4 bodily fluids: blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm.

Then there is the miasma theory of disease. There are also: Spontaneous Generation, Expanding Earth , phlogiston theory, luminiferous aether, and dare I say hundreds and perhaps thousands more.

What about computing, where this conversation is taking place; what is the common sense understanding of computing (or perhaps a bit of science played a role in these words)? Is there a common sense alternative for atomic theory, or is that a NASA psyop that is fooling all of us.

Feel free to think that personal experience, common sense, is a defining factor in how the world exists, and operates. That is your choice.

But let those of us that know a bit more have our choice of scientific explanations, that can never be explained using single-person experience of common sense.

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17. Stu August 11, 2017 at 4:55 pm Reply

Ah Keith, so they say. I don’t believe them though.
Have a lovely day.

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18. Stu August 12, 2017 at 7:38 am Reply

Creation will make a mockery out of you before you can make a mockery out of it.!

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19. Stu August 12, 2017 at 7:46 am Reply

I do feel free thank you very much. It’s a frame of mind.

And you, Mike and Keith can carry on believing the things you have not experienced.

Have a lovely 4 minute extra long day.

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20. Stu August 12, 2017 at 8:04 am Reply

Fact for all…….Would you like to KNOW how many aircraft flew over us or how many ships passed us during my seven month tour on South Georgia.?

Not forgetting that I was one of the three royal signals specialist communicators on the island with all the specialist radio equipment you could dream of, including having the BAS frequencies because at that time we were in communication with the two most remote people on the Earth who were BAS employees based on Bird Island.

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• FactYouAll August 12, 2017 at 12:56 pm Reply

Stu,

Thanks for those details of your work experience.

What is the common sense understanding of signals, and radio? How can an outsider observe and know what is happening in that activity?

Or perhaps, as I believe you are suggesting, they should rely on detail from someone who is specialized and trained on the topic to provide a much more robust and accurate account of the events and processes being used?

Would you trust an outsiders explanation of how your knowledge of that subject was bollocks, and that their common sense view was the truth (perhaps even proof)?

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• Stu August 12, 2017 at 1:57 pm

Like I said you can carry on believing what you have not experienced.

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• Stu August 12, 2017 at 2:02 pm

Oh I nearly forgot…….

NO aircraft flew over us in 7 months and in that time the only ship to pass us was the patrolling naval frigate that picked me up and took me back to the Falkland Islands.

Believe what you want to believe, that is the truth. A fact for you.!

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• FactYouAll August 12, 2017 at 3:29 pm

Stu,

If I may, I’d like to get back to radio/signals and the common sense approach, two things you’ve directly introduced.

What is the common sense aspect of radio/signals, and what is the scientific explanations? Are they different?

If these are so important you mentioned them repeatedly, perhaps you can help us understand the topic better.

Thanks.

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21. Stu August 12, 2017 at 12:51 pm Reply

Oh and have some lovely daylight savings to go along with your 4 minute extra long days.!

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22. iamdereke October 19, 2017 at 12:35 pm Reply

Don’t be upset or confused by the sun issue. You are both right! Day and night should flip… and it does! You just can’t observe the switch with the clocks we use. Our clock are based on an EXACTLY 24 hour day. While the earth rotaion actually takes 23 hours and 56 minutes. That extra 4 minutes a day that our time system adds makes up for the distance that we move around the sun everyday. So every day the sun appears to by at the highest point in the sky at the same time. If you want to observe this switch you will need to find a clock that runs on 23 hour 56 minute time scale.

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23. jacques.levesque@hotmail.ca November 28, 2017 at 12:28 am Reply

How come everyone is complicating everything.

A month is not an accurate measument.
Some are 30 days, some 31, some even 28 or 29.

So by 6 month I assume you mean half a years….
365/2 = 182.5 days……. or 6 month + 12 hours.

There you go.

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• Keith C December 3, 2017 at 6:57 pm Reply

You are right iamdereke, you just said it more succintly. Note the direction of noon inertially. 182.5 days later, noon points in exactly the opposite direction. But it is always pointing at the sun, so we have to be orbiting the sun. The clocks and time were setup to be this way. It isn’t a miracle that it worked out. It was intentional!

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24. Erik Deriso October 26, 2018 at 3:05 pm Reply

Alongside perspective, atmospheric refraction plays a huge part of how we see a sunrise/set. Water and other materials in the atmosphere causes a magnification, which is why it doesn’t shrink a substantial amount, and an apparent drop, even further than perspective allows.

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• Keith C. January 29, 2021 at 2:33 pm Reply

In water, the magnification of an image is 1.33 times, but in atmosphere the amount of wat is much less magnificaiton, and if it is even 1.1 doubt it would be recognizable.

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25. A Random VIsiter January 9, 2019 at 5:27 pm Reply

it could change every 6 months…

if daylight savings wasn’t a thing.

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26. Circle Of The Earth Proofs January 19, 2019 at 11:12 am Reply

Hi, I like reading your book, just wondering how you said the ISS is geo-synchronized with Earth in your book, because I can’t find any sources which say the ISS is in a geostationary orbit. Thank you.

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• Keith C. March 3, 2019 at 10:57 pm Reply

ISS is not in ‘geo-synchronized’ orbit. It is in low-earth orbit at 57 degrees inclination.

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27. Lucio Strata December 4, 2020 at 12:05 am Reply

THE EARTH ROTATION IS 366 and 367 A YAEAR ?!?!?!?!?!?
Why the rotation of the earth is not 24 hours? I smell a rat as we have to add a day rotation a year.
This was done to make the Light and Darkness correct but there are still problems in the Copernicus theory.
Days Days Days Days Total
365 365 365 366 1461 Days
366 366 366 367 1465 Rotations
𝑥= 1461 Days x 24 Hours ÷ 1465 Rotations = 56.0682 Minutes
𝑥= 0.0682 x 60 = 4.092 Seconds
My calculation 23 hours 56 minutes and 4.092 seconds
(This calculation is correct).
“Scientific American”23 hours, 56 minutes and 4.09053 seconds (Wrong calculation).
In 112 years the earth will be 1 minutes out position.
See: “Scientific American How fast is the earth moving?”.
The only conclusion is that the earth is not a ball.